2005-01-27 [Locke8uu]: Could anyone imagine not being able to comprehend the world around them outside of if there is food, water, or predators. I know that seems like the world would be over to anyone reading this forum.

2005-01-27 [Amtharnis]: To imagine that, you need something other than logic - you need creativity. Creativity includes the ability to think illogically and abstractly. Civilisation owes as much to creativity as it does to logic. Creativity provides the ideas, and logic allows you to test those ideas. So people who say that you shouldn't focus too much on logic, may have a point, and using the logic can get you into trouble.

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: I wouldn't go so far as to say that, although creativity is of a different breed than logic, I wouldn't say it's illogical.

2005-01-27 [Amtharnis]: I didn't say it was illogical. I said it includes the ability to think illogically. However, it might be the case that thinking illogically might not be possible even with creativity - that there might even be something logical in what seems illogical thought. I don't know. What do you think?

2005-01-27 [wwwwwwwww]: I think that there must be a logic to creativity, otherwise it wouldn't work. It's like the "thinking outside the box" problem.. the only solution to the problem recquires creativity, but it's also the only logical way to do it. Perhaps creativity is just a way of applying logic to illogical situations.. if that makes any sense.

2005-01-28 [Amtharnis]: Does it have to work? You might come up with a great idea that doesn't work when you apply logic to it, but does that mean you weren't being creative, or is it only creative when it works? I suppose if it doesn't work it could be said to be destruction, not creativity. That could be an interesting definition. If creativity is applying logic to illogical situations, what do you create the illogical situation with?

2005-01-28 [wwwwwwwww]: The world is an illogical place, and illogical situations often arise. However, with regards to " you might come up with a great idea that doesn't work when you apply logic to it".. well then it wouldn't really be a great idea. However, there are some ideas that don't work because logic has not been applied in the right way, if you see what I mean.

2005-01-28 [Amtharnis]: If I had an idea that sounded ludicrous and made you laugh, wouldn't it great that it made you laugh. Creativity might have other uses that don't require as strict a logic. Writing a fantasy novel for example, you can go on imaginative experiment by allowing things that would be logically impossible to happen in the real world to happen in the world of your imagination. Language is not always logical in its structure and rules, but it is still a very useful tool and the idea for us apes to use sounds to communicate with has been a pretty successful idea.

2005-01-29 [Forbidden Rampage]: Has anyone read "The Da Vinci Code"? It has some very out of the ordinary ideas in it. The wierd thing is that they actually make sense! I encourage everyone to read it.

2005-01-29 [wwwwwwwww]: Yeah, it is a good book, as well as Angels & Demons (another one from Dan Brown), but not everything is factual in his works, which are after all fiction.

2005-01-29 [Amtharnis]: Can a work of fiction not have a theme that is philisophical even though the story mightn't be factual? I haven't read the Da Vinci Code - thankyou for the tip.

2005-01-29 [wwwwwwwww]: While you're at it, read the other book I mentioned. They are both rich in some very interesting historical facts, as well as an amazing plot. But little of the story directly deals with philosophy.

2005-01-30 [Locke8uu]: The actual "Da Vinci Code" is a number called the Golden Mean. It is a ratio of perfection used in all things pleasing to the eye. I can't remember the exact number, but I think is is something lik 1.85 blah blah. That number is used in architecture and can be found in attractive faces and body forms.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: That's an interesting bit of information. So the intellectual way to tell someone they're hot is, "You're so 1.85..." Funny thing is I never even thought of the titles association with Leonardo until you mentioned that.

2005-01-30 [Locke8uu]: I am sorry the number I mentioned is incorrect. It is actually 1.618034. It is a ratio used in dimensions not an adjective.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: Back to the old drawing board on that one then I guess.

2005-01-30 [wwwwwwwww]: it's called "phi", like pi with an h.

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: It must be an adjective then, because "everybody says I'm pretty phi for a white guy."

2005-01-30 [Amtharnis]: To be more serious, now that everybody knows what phi (Golden Mean) is, the question that could be asked is why is it beautiful? This website http://www.vashti.net/mceinc/golden.htm gives an explaination of how it is mathematically derived and why it occurs in nature. So is it beautiful because evolution has conditioned to look for proportions of phi in a potential partner as a sign of health and therefore want to breed with it? Or does it have a higher meaning; ie, a number chosen by god or something, or that the meaning of life may lie in phi? Not sure how that would work, but anyway. There's a propositon for a discussion if you wanted one.

2005-01-31 [wwwwwwwww]: I think that it might have something to do with evolution.. perhaps the number 'phi' constitutes a more durable creature, and for that reason phi-proportions recur in nature as often as it does. I believe that the "beautiful" part of it might well be what you suggested... if it has a higher meaning, how? Why would "god" choose that specific number?

2005-01-31 [Forbidden Rampage]: Well on the other hand hy would nature, purely by chance, happen to come an exact number for everything? It is too exact to be purely by chance. I believe that it is also called the "divine proportion"